CB77
 |
|
Automotive News
October 22, 2013 - 12:00 pm ET
DETROIT -- American Honda Motor Co. has agreed to settle a class-action lawsuit over claims that it manufactured 1,593,755 defective vehicles that excessively burn oil and require frequent spark plug replacements.
The settlement concerns all U.S. purchasers and lessees of 2008-12 Accord, 2008-13 Odyssey, 2009-13 Pilot, 2010-11 Accord Crosstour and 2012 Crosstour vehicles equipped with six-cylinder engines that have variable cylinder management. Accord vehicles with four-cylinder engines are excluded from the settlement.
The original suit -- filed in March 2012 by plaintiffs Alex Soto and Vince Eagen -- claimed the vehicles contained a "systematic design defect that enables oil to enter into the engine's combustion chamber." The alleged defect led to "premature spark plug degradation and engine malfunction," court documents said.
The plaintiffs claimed Honda hid the problem from consumers. Honda denied the allegation, despite receiving hundreds of online complaints on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Web site, and about 130 on carcomplaints.com concerning the 2008 Accord alone.
Honda later issued a technical service bulletin notifying its technicians to check for the defect. The automaker did not issue a recall because a safety issue was not discovered.
The majority of complaints allege that Honda said it was normal for a powertrain to burn a quart of oil every 1,000 miles. The suit claimed Honda refused to cover warranties for the vehicles and, instead, instructed customers to check their oil every time they get gas.
Eagan claims that he had to add a quart of oil to his vehicle each month and had to replace his "prematurely fouled" spark plugs twice within 55,000 miles as a result of oil burning in the cylinders.
Soto said in court documents that he routinely noticed carbon buildup on his exhaust pipe -- a sign that oil, and not just gasoline, is burning in the powertrain.
Honda assured Soto that this, too, was normal, court documents show.
Dave Sullivan, an analyst at research firm AutoPacific, said that today's emission requirements do not permit engines to burn oil.
"It's too dirty," Sullivan said. "We're seeing cars go 10,000 miles now between oil changes. If there was a quart for every thousand miles you would need 10 quarts, and most cars don't have that many quarts in them."
Sullivan said when he changed the oil in his Mazda6 that he may have lost "a cup or two of oil between changes, but that was over 7,500 miles. I think that's a negligible amount. That being said, there's no excuse for a quart every thousand miles."
Sullivan said the last major episode that involved people complaining about oil burn was with the Mazda RX-8. "Instead of waiting for people to complain, [Mazda] was more proactive and … said 'even if you don't have a problem, you're going to have one so let's just fix it now.'"
Honda declined to comment until after the case is granted final approval.
The settlement was reached after U.S. District Judge Susan Illston declined the defendant's motion to force arbitration on the case in Oct. 2012. The judge found that Honda was a third-party non-signatory to a contract and therefore may not compel arbitration under the terms of the contract.
The preliminary settlement approval was given Oct. 9 by Illston in San Francisco. The final fairness hearing, which is the last step in a class action settlement, is set for March 21.
Under the conditions of the settlement, Honda agreed to extend the powertrain limited warranty for up to eight years after the original sale or lease of the vehicle. Honda also agreed not to oppose the counsel attorney fees as long as they do not exceed more than $800,000. Eagen is also asking the court to approve an incentive award of no more than $1,000 to compensate him for his time and effort on behalf of the settlement class, according to a copy of the class notice.
|
gofast182
|
|
I have a friend with a '09 Accord K24 burning massive amounts of oil, quarts between changes. A google search revealed many others with the problem on 08-09 K24 Accords. I'm surprised they are excluded from this.
|
notyper
|
|
I was actually approached by plaintiffs attorneys in this case to see if I would serve as a technical expert in this matter. I did not, but based upon what I was told, I am surprised Honda settled this one.
Virtually every manufacturer out there states that one quart of oil consumption every 1000 miles is considered normal, and some (Porsche) go so far as to say a quart every 1000 km (600 miles).
The technical issue in this case hinged upon whether the VCM system could cause additional oil consumption over a non-VCM engine because the cylinders were not loaded and the oil rings not sealing (and apparently there was a difference in spark plug condition between the VCM affected cylinders and the regular ones).
AFAIK (and I was not privy to any documents since I did not consult), there is no real evidence of any damages here. You should check your oil frequently and one quart per month is not a huge amount of oil, especially if you're driving hard.
I'm surprised Dave Sullivan agreed to be quoted on this one. The idiocy of stating "well my car only burns a 2 cups of oil every 7500 miles" as an example of what _should_ happen is profound. Anecdotes as a comment on a class action lawsuit are ridiculous. I wonder if he's ever talked to a Porsche owner, for example.
And PS - all cars have carbon deposits on their exhausts, whether they burn oil or not.
SC
Last edited by notyper on 10-23-2013 11:21
|
Nick GravesX
|
|
A FRM-bore Honda that drinks oils like it's going out of fashion?
Especially if you use modern thin stuff & VTEC a lot.
Well, I've never heard of that before...
You'll be telling me it goes black quickly next.
Honestly; this ranks alongside warnings not to dry your poodle in a microwave or LEFT FOOT RIGHT FOOT signs for morons who buy Toyotas...
The US is fucked. In a handbasket.
|
A77X
|
|
??? Just thought I'd say I have only had one customer in 7 years complain about excessive oil consumption (and that was a 4 cyl Accord and he drove like an idiot). I just checked with one of our service advisors who hadnt had any such complaints. Older engines sure.
So its VCM engines only - not the V6/6? How come?
Seems a complainant said he had to replace the plugs 2 times in 55,000 miles. That's not normal for sure for Honda engines. Though I can't help but post that Chryslers are supposed to have theirs changed very 25000 miles routinely.
Just thinking.......Maintenance Minder is allowing oil change intervals of up to 15,000 miles. Thinner 0-20 oil is probably more likely to get burned off (?). When people were getting their oil changed every 3 to 5000 miles they wouldnt even know about excessive oil consumption as it wouldnt go low enough to be a problem in this time. But with longer intervals they are more likely to check it and notice. I did on my Acura (4 cyl) when the MM was showing about 30% left and indeed it did need a small bottle to be added. No biggie - its the only money I have ever spent on it as I get free servicing (:-)). a quart per 1000kms is ridiculous but I think most manufacturers have this absurd threshold of "normality". maybe we havent seen problems at our dealership and customers are encouraged to basically ignore MMC and come in every 6 months at least.....
|
longhorn
|
|
notyper wrote:
I was actually approached by plaintiffs attorneys in this case to see if I would serve as a technical expert in this matter. I did not, but based upon what I was told, I am surprised Honda settled this one.
Virtually every manufacturer out there states that one quart of oil consumption every 1000 miles is considered normal, and some (Porsche) go so far as to say a quart every 1000 km (600 miles).
The technical issue in this case hinged upon whether the VCM system could cause additional oil consumption over a non-VCM engine because the cylinders were not loaded and the oil rings not sealing (and apparently there was a difference in spark plug condition between the VCM affected cylinders and the regular ones).
AFAIK (and I was not privy to any documents since I did not consult), there is no real evidence of any damages here. You should check your oil frequently and one quart per month is not a huge amount of oil, especially if you're driving hard.
I'm surprised Dave Sullivan agreed to be quoted on this one. The idiocy of stating "well my car only burns a 2 cups of oil every 7500 miles" as an example of what _should_ happen is profound. Anecdotes as a comment on a class action lawsuit are ridiculous. I wonder if he's ever talked to a Porsche owner, for example.
And PS - all cars have carbon deposits on their exhausts, whether they burn oil or not.
SC
|
I ask this question on TOV about Honda V-6s burning more oil than normal sometime ago. A co-worker had a 2010 Honda Accord V-6 that went through oil like a sailor through liquor. Go to the Pilot discussion forums and oil usuage is a topic there. The fact that Honda settled means they knew it was a problem, better to settle to let it go away.
Its probably why the VCM now only goes from 6 to 3 and not 6-4-3.
|
A77X
|
|
VCM changed to the 6-4-3 modes in order to reduce engine mount failure problems. This has been apparently resolved with the accord - it also helps that its also producing a lot more low down torque, so can stay in 3 cyl mode more often.
Spoke to another tec - he reckons problems tend only to get bad by people hammering engines before they have a chance to get warm. Esp in our very cold climate.
|
98EX4cyl
|
|
Good to know the settlement will extend the warranty since I own a 2008 V6 Accord. I have already had the TSB #10-033 performed and had 4 fouled spark plugs replaced.
Wondering if anyone knows if the excess oil consumption will shorten the life of the catalytic converter?
Previous thread on subject of Accord Oil usage and fouled plugs:
http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=1063237
Link to TSB
http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82678
|
Maximania
|
|
So, as an owner of a 2009 V6 automatic(VCM obviously) accord, what should I do as a result of this law-suit? Is the extended warranty the only thing that I gain?
The reason I am a bit confused is that I don't drive my car very far (only have 26k miles). Haven't encountered any sparkplug issues, but I have noticed that oil burns way too quickly and foul smells emit whenever I drive the car hard. Should I continue driving the car as normal and take any oil/sparkplug issues to Honda if they arise? How do I claim it under warranty?
|
6SPDTL
|
|
Ive never had a Honda consume any oil. 4 nor 6 vcm or not
|
6SPDTL
|
|
Forgot. Sounds like bullish*t to me! Another BS suit. Friigin lawyers.
|
giltibo
|
|
Both our K24s (My wife's '03 CRV (Dead in an accident @ over 320 000km) and my '08 Accord (101 000 so far) have consumed about 1L / 1500km since new. They always spun like tops, in both cases. You only have to be diligent about checking your oil level, as it is always been recommended since cars exist...
|
notyper
|
|
I think far more cars consume oil than people think. It's just that today the vast majority of cars get oil changes done by someone besides the owner. And most owners don't check the oil on any sort of regular basis - if at all.
As someone else pointed out, with the advent of longer oil change intervals people will start to notice it more. I think this is why the Germans have started to put electronic oil level monitors into everything. You can't go 10-15k miles between changes without consuming some oil. I seem to recall Edmunds having to add oil frequently on their last long term BMW.
In terms of what this means for engine or emissions system health - not much. The average car seeing mixed use will average somewhere between 30-40 mph over its life. Depending on gearing this will result in an average engine speed (excluding idle time) of between 2000 and 3000 rpm. So, for example, lets say 35 mph and 2500 rpm average. That's about 0.5 miles/minute. Or 5000 engine revolutions per mile. If you burn 1 liter of oil per 1000 miles, that's 1000cc per 5 million revolutions. On a v6 that's 1000cc per 15 million cylinder injection/firing events. Or 1 cc of oil per 15,000 firing events. Or 0.00006 cc/cylinder event. In that same time period you'll be burning nearly 200 liters of fuel on the typical v6. If you really think oil contamination of 0.5% is going to dramatically change things in a gas engine well, you don't want to know what else gets burned.
SC
|
Slawsk
|
|
Ask any service adviser or technician at a Honda dealer. They replace the short-blocks on these V6 engines on a daily basis.
Anybody purchasing a used Honda with VCM should avoid them because they are unreliable and expensive to repair.
Shame on Honda for not admitting the problem on their own and taking care of their customers. Instead, they fought it in court and lost. The 4-cyl version on the Accord is also riddled with issues, although not as major of an issue as the VCM V6.
|
HondaJet
|
|
notyper wrote:
I think far more cars consume oil than people think. It's just that today the vast majority of cars get oil changes done by someone besides the owner. And most owners don't check the oil on any sort of regular basis - if at all.
As someone else pointed out, with the advent of longer oil change intervals people will start to notice it more. I think this is why the Germans have started to put electronic oil level monitors into everything. You can't go 10-15k miles between changes without consuming some oil. I seem to recall Edmunds having to add oil frequently on their last long term BMW.
In terms of what this means for engine or emissions system health - not much. The average car seeing mixed use will average somewhere between 30-40 mph over its life. Depending on gearing this will result in an average engine speed (excluding idle time) of between 2000 and 3000 rpm. So, for example, lets say 35 mph and 2500 rpm average. That's about 0.5 miles/minute. Or 5000 engine revolutions per mile. If you burn 1 liter of oil per 1000 miles, that's 1000cc per 5 million revolutions. On a v6 that's 1000cc per 15 million cylinder injection/firing events. Or 1 cc of oil per 15,000 firing events. Or 0.00006 cc/cylinder event. In that same time period you'll be burning nearly 200 liters of fuel on the typical v6. If you really think oil contamination of 0.5% is going to dramatically change things in a gas engine well, you don't want to know what else gets burned.
SC
|
Enlightened. Thanks SC.
And yeah, freakin' lawyers... and Mazda6 owners/experts...
|
owequitit
|
|
Slawsk wrote:
Ask any service adviser or technician at a Honda dealer. They replace the short-blocks on these V6 engines on a daily basis.
Anybody purchasing a used Honda with VCM should avoid them because they are unreliable and expensive to repair.
Shame on Honda for not admitting the problem on their own and taking care of their customers. Instead, they fought it in court and lost. The 4-cyl version on the Accord is also riddled with issues, although not as major of an issue as the VCM V6.
|
Sources?
I am genuinely curious. We had a 2009 EX-L V6 5AT and had not a single issue with it burning oil, having buildup anywhere, or even ever running with so much as a hint of a skipped beat. It seems to me that we had about 50K on it when we traded it in, so I would think that if it is an issue by 50K (as the plaintiff claimed 2 plug changes in 55K), we would have noticed it. Our car wasn't driven unusually easy, and after hearing rumors of oil consumption, I started checking more often and there was literally nothing in the way of abnormal consumption (I think the most I ever saw it down was about .5 quarts between MM reminders). The 8th gen was far from my favorite Honda engine, and we had many complaints about that car, but powertrain reliability/durability certainly was never one of them.
|
eneka
|
|
just hit 160k on my 05' Odyssey and never seemed to have problems with burning oil. Of course mine doesn't have the 3-4-6 mode only the 3-6 mode. Haven't really heard any major complaints of oil burning at odyclub either..
|
Grace141
|
|
I've been curious about how the VCM engines would burn oil. I don't doubt that it's a problem and, to be honest, it was a factor in my choosing my current 4-cylinder sedan. I assume it's an issue with blow-by with the PCV system directing the oil/oil vapor thru the intake and fouling the plugs. Makes sense. It might also make sense that the emissions system could compensate for the poor "fuel mixture" by bumping up the gasoline percentage which might explain the disappointment so many folks expressed with the modest MPG gains of VCM.
Also, I've never owned any car that burned any oil or at least had the oil level drop below the full mark during a change cycle. I do know that all cars consume oil so what I'm seeing is lost oil replaced by unburned fuel and contaminants. That's why you change oil in the first place. The two J30 Accords I had usually had the oil slightly above the full mark at the 3k mile change intervals. I don't push cars very hard very often.
My current Accord has been at the full mark at the 8500 mile 15% MM change intervals. So far so good. I'm old-school afraid of long change intervals so I use Mobil 1.
Can anyone say for certain why the VCM engines would burn oil? What would be the design flaw?
|
JeffX
|
|
Grace141 wrote:
I've been curious about how the VCM engines would burn oil. I don't doubt that it's a problem and, to be honest, it was a factor in my choosing my current 4-cylinder sedan. I assume it's an issue with blow-by with the PCV system directing the oil/oil vapor thru the intake and fouling the plugs. Makes sense. It might also make sense that the emissions system could compensate for the poor "fuel mixture" by bumping up the gasoline percentage which might explain the disappointment so many folks expressed with the modest MPG gains of VCM.
Also, I've never owned any car that burned any oil or at least had the oil level drop below the full mark during a change cycle. I do know that all cars consume oil so what I'm seeing is lost oil replaced by unburned fuel and contaminants. That's why you change oil in the first place. The two J30 Accords I had usually had the oil slightly above the full mark at the 3k mile change intervals. I don't push cars very hard very often.
My current Accord has been at the full mark at the 8500 mile 15% MM change intervals. So far so good. I'm old-school afraid of long change intervals so I use Mobil 1.
Can anyone say for certain why the VCM engines would burn oil? What would be the design flaw?
|
Our '06 Odyssey (VCM I - 3/6cyl) has nearly 100k on the odo now. I usually try to change the oil every 5000 miles, always within the 15% range of the maintenance minder. So far it hasn't burned any oil that I would deem to be "unusual". What I mean by that is that I never have to add oil between changes - it's never low on the dipstick.
Back when we bought our Odyssey, I wasn't so much worried about wear or durability concerns. My biggest complaint with VCM of that era was that it overpromised and underdelivered. Less power/torque and worse real world fuel economy than the non-VCM counterpart. But I haven't had a single issue with the engine. Besides the oil changes, I've only had to replace the serpentine belt so far (it was due according to the maint. schedule). {Knocks on wood} I have a new timing belt, tensioner, and water pump sitting in a box in the garage waiting for me to get motivated to do the job.
With the VCM in the current Accord, it's a win-win. There's absolutely no drawback. I wouldn't hesitate to buy the new Accord V6. In fact if I were to buy a 2014 Accord it would only be the V6 or the Hybrid (or a 6MT Touring 2.4, which doesn't exist). I wouldn't buy the 2.4 because I don't trust CVTs and the V6 actually delivers superior fuel economy (for me) on the open road. And the V6 just romps it in terms of performance.
|
gofast182
|
|
FWIW my wife's boss had an '09 EX-L V6 ran up 120k trouble-free miles and then gave it to his wife who is driving it now.
|
superchg2
|
|
Slawsk wrote:
Ask any service adviser or technician at a Honda dealer. They replace the short-blocks on these V6 engines on a daily basis.
Anybody purchasing a used Honda with VCM should avoid them because they are unreliable and expensive to repair.
Shame on Honda for not admitting the problem on their own and taking care of their customers. Instead, they fought it in court and lost. The 4-cyl version on the Accord is also riddled with issues, although not as major of an issue as the VCM V6.
|
Pretty strong stuff you are throwing out here and it has not been indicated by members that own these cars on this forum. Please show us something to back up what you are saying.
|
JDMImport
|
|
Slawsk wrote:
Ask any service adviser or technician at a Honda dealer. They replace the short-blocks on these V6 engines on a daily basis.
Anybody purchasing a used Honda with VCM should avoid them because they are unreliable and expensive to repair.
Shame on Honda for not admitting the problem on their own and taking care of their customers. Instead, they fought it in court and lost. The 4-cyl version on the Accord is also riddled with issues, although not as major of an issue as the VCM V6.
|
That's a pretty bold statement there buddy. I would be inclined to disagree.
Not saying people have not been having issues, because there obviously have been. When a manufacturer settles in a suit like this, it's either to save money in the long run, or because there is some fault to be accepted. Those who have had issues will say the latter while others will say the former.
I don't own a VCM Honda, but my 2004 has a J series V6. Pretty darn bullet proof.
|
Mochisushi
|
|
05 Odyssey EX-L, 280K miles, bought new, always went by the maintenance monitor (and in the later years, went way over), bought oil that was on sale, Fram Oil Filters. It's still running great, although we limit it to around town use, now. It uses about one quart in 3000 miles.
06 Odyssey EX-L, 110K miles. I bought it used with ~75K miles. As with the 05, I always go by the maintenance monitor (but don't go over by more than a few hundred miles). I take it to Grease Monkey for oil changes. Oil level is full when I take it in after about 8500-9000 miles.
|
99SI
|
|
This is a total BS statement. I know of many people with 05-10 Odysseys with mileage up to 150k with zero problems and zero oil consumption. Only issues I have heard on the high mileage ones are power steering pump, wheel bearings and that is it. My dad has an 06 with 136k that he just changed the original brake pads on (and they still had life left). Honda engines unreliable LOL..... That gave me a good chuckle...
|
Slawsk
|
|
I suppose I should correct myself and say that it's the 2008 and up model years VCM which should be avoided.
Again, go to any Honda dealer and candidly ask a tech or manager about how many 4-cyl and 6-cyl short-blocks they are replacing. It's reminiscent of the 4 and 5 speed V6 automatic transmission fiasco a decade ago...
|
6SPDTL
|
|
I did a little reading elsewhere about industry TSBS and the oil eating issue is among them. Honda says that in some V6 engines the piston rings have a tendency to align thus leaking more oil than normal into the piston. Ive had 3 vcm engines all which consumed zero oil. They have extended the warranty of all those engines thus admitting its a real issue though as far as I know it maybe rare.
|
longhorn
|
|
Slawsk wrote:
Ask any service adviser or technician at a Honda dealer. They replace the short-blocks on these V6 engines on a daily basis.
Anybody purchasing a used Honda with VCM should avoid them because they are unreliable and expensive to repair.
Shame on Honda for not admitting the problem on their own and taking care of their customers. Instead, they fought it in court and lost. The 4-cyl version on the Accord is also riddled with issues, although not as major of an issue as the VCM V6.
|
I do know of a Honda Tech that have stated they have replaced two VCM V-6s (on Honda's dime), was it for the VCM problems? Who knows, but some of the those gen V-6 have a problem with cylinder 3 spark plug wearing prematurely (in one case 3 spark plugs in 85K miles). Honda techs do know of this problem. Next time one get their oil changed at a Honda dealer, ask a tech about it.
Now why doesn't everyone have the same problem? It could be limited to certain run of motors.
Despite this I have no doubt this V-6 will give its owners 200K trouble free miles if one does not have one of these "weird" motors. Again, the fact that Honda is settling the case on this is telling.
|
RolledaNsx
|
|
Something about the early VCM V6 engines that go 6-4-3(its hit or miss not ALL engines...VERY SMALL NUMBER BUT MORE THAN HONDA IS USE TOO),the piston rings cut into the cylinder walls(most likely because of not being loaded with a fuel/air mixture)piston probably vibrates.
|
RolledaNsx
|
|
and failing spark plugs
|
A77X
|
|
Slawsk wrote:
Ask any service adviser or technician at a Honda dealer. They replace the short-blocks on these V6 engines on a daily basis.
Anybody purchasing a used Honda with VCM should avoid them because they are unreliable and expensive to repair.
Shame on Honda for not admitting the problem on their own and taking care of their customers. Instead, they fought it in court and lost. The 4-cyl version on the Accord is also riddled with issues, although not as major of an issue as the VCM V6.
|
This statement is totally false. These are extremely reliable engines. I have been at Honda 7 years. Engine block changes are rare, especially with the V6s. The transmission problems have been well documented, not just V6s. But the engines are fine. I have sold 100s of V6 Hondas since 2008 and I don't know of a single customer who has needed engine block replacement. Not one. I am not saying Honda engines are perfect (R18 cylinder heads eg), But it is a documented fact that Honda makes the most durable, least likely to fail, car engines.
|
|
|
|
| |
![[home]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/home.gif){kind=small}
![[rumors and news]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/rumors.gif){kind=small}
![[model release matrix]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/newmodelreleasematrix.gif){kind=small}
![[tov motorsports]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/tov-m.gif){kind=small}
![[desktop calendar]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/calendar.gif){kind=small}
![[exhaust notes]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/exhaust.gif){kind=small}
![[tov forums]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/forums.gif){kind=small}
![[links]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/links.gif){kind=small}
![[search]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/search.gif){kind=small}
![[sponsors]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/sponsors.gif){kind=small}
![[garage]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/garage.gif){kind=small}
![[login]](https://sohc.vtec.net/elem04/login.gif){kind=small}
